Why BKE Does Not Subscribe to the Pre-Trib View
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/yusefii/rapture.htm
Yes, and while I can relate to the great wishes and hopes that the Pre-Tribulation view be true having once subscribed to the view, I must now admit that it is un-Biblical. Unfortunately, support for this eschatological view is not truly found in the Holy Scriptures. Moreover, when examining the arguments used for the Pre-Trib view one finds the general problem with the argumentation is overplaying the hand—stretching the meaning of verses much farther than its author(s) would ever find warrant for.
We will now quote extensively from
http://www.novia.net/~todd/rap199.html
and use the pro-PreTrib arguments contained therein as representative work of
all Pre-Trib arguments (for better or for worse; nothing personal against the
author though). In doing so we
hope to demonstrate that the Pre-Trib view is errant, while going on to
demonstrate that even a Mid(st)-Trib take on eschatology is errant.
1.
<< Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture
"Ye
Know Neither the Day nor the Hour" (Mat 25:13) Vs 1260 days, (Rev 12:6)
When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing of the Lord
Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and others
that tell us we will know the day. Mat 25:13 say that Jesus will return at an
unknown time, while Rev 12:6 states that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord
1260 days. The 1260 days start when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God
and declares himself to be God.(2 Thes 2:4) This event will take place at the
mid-point of the seven year tribulation. (Dan 9:27) It should be noted that
some people only see a 3 1/2 year tribulation. They are in a way correct,
because the first half of tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to
the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a 7 year
time period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness,
they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days.(Mat 24:16)
There is no way you can apply "neither the day nor the hour" to this
situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true, there needs to be
two separate distinct events transpiring here, the rapture of the Church before
the tribulation, and Jesus' returning to earth seven years later. >>
The problem with this argument is
precisely that the author of it has overplayed his
hand when it comes to Revelation 12:6.
Let us take a look at this verse now, with some context included: Revelation,
chapter 12.
Now, all would agree
that Rev. 12:6 states that the woman would be taken care of for
1260 days. However, where in
Revelation 12:6 is it said: “This period of 1,260 marks the end of the
tribulation”? Answer: nowhere. Where is it said in this Scripture that
the woman will not be subjected to some troubles after the 1260-day period
would end? Answer: nowhere. (That bit of information cannot even be
gleaned from Matthew 24. As for
Daniel 9:27, the mention of a “seven” here comes about since the covenant of
peace was a seven(-year?) covenant.
THAT is reason for the mention of a “seven” in Daniel 9:27; in other
words, when Daniel speaks of the actions of this wicked ruler in ‘the middle of
the seven’ what he has in mind is seven years of the covenant, not seven
years of some Tribulation.)
And whereas one of the premises of
the quoted argument above is false, the argument is not sound.
Meanwhile, the unknown-day-or-hour
argument for the Pre-Trib view, even without mention of Rev. 12:6, is an
argument worthy of consideration.
After all, if the Lord is said Biblically to return upon the end of this
seven-year great tribulation beginning with the confirmation of the covenant
mentioned in Daniel 9:27, and if we will know when the covenant will be
confirmed, then we can know the day or hour of Christ’s return; of course, we really
cannot know the day or hour, thus the Pre-Trib view at this point would seem to
hold more weight.
However, I ask: Where is it even taught in the Scriptures that Christ will return at the end of this tribulation of the supposed, precise length of seven years? Given what we have just mentioned in the past few paragraphs above—if Revelation 12 and Daniel 9 are your pet verses—then there is no case for the widely believed (and widely unquestioned) notion that Christ returns at the end of a tribulation of a duration of exactly seven years.
2.
<< The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36 the word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning
from a wedding. In Rev 19:7-8 we read about the marriage itself. Before the
marriage takes place, there is the marriage supper. According to Jewish custom,
first the marriage contract is drawn up, often including a dowry. This
parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our savior. The
dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When the time comes for the
wedding to take place, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced, she
comes out to meet him, and they both return to his father's house. This is an
exact correlation of the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus the groom
comes down from heaven, calls up the Church, the Church next rises into the air
to meet Jesus, and then both He and the bride return to the His Father's house
(heaven). The marriage supper itself will take place up in heaven, while down
here on earth the final events of the tribulation are playing themselves out.
After the marriage supper takes place, the bride and groom are presented to the
world as man and wife. This matches the time when Jesus returns to earth,
accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev
19:14) >>
Even if we grant for the sake of discussion that the wedding analogy be a good one, this argument is built on a presupposition of the last argument that we examined. Specifically, this presupposition is that with the confirming of the covenant (Dan. 9:27) by the Antichrist a great tribulation of exactly seven years in length will be kicked off, all ending with Christ’s return. However, we find no firm Biblical evidence for a seven-year period of great tribulation.
Meanwhile we should probably stop to ponder if this analogy be not a good one on the grounds that it bespeaks specifically Jewish wedding customs. Not all Christians are ethnically Jews.
3.
<< The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and
slay all the ungodly; who would them be left to populate the millennium? Only
the pre-trib view point can account for this post-trib problem; the Church is
raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this 7
year time frame, and those that make it through the tribulation will go into
the millennium, while the unsaved are cast into hell. >>
Why is it a problem? Is there some good reason why we should
suspect that a necessary logical consequence of non-PreTrib views is that
raptured saints cannot return to earth?
4.
<< The Big Flip
In the pre-trib scenario, after we will rise to meet the Lord in the air, we
will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of the seven years,
Christ comes down to earth, defeats the Antichrist, and cleanses the temple. In
a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air meet the Lord, then do a 180
degree turn and come back down to earth. It states in Rev 1:7 that Christ will
appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. It says in Zech. 14:4 His feet
will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we
need to be caught up to meet Him? >>
Not exactly a strong argument
against non-Pre-Trib views. If the
saints’ meeting Christ in the air while He is on His way down is a logical
consequence of those arguments made for a non-Pre-Trib view, and if the
arguments happen to be sound, then this scenario of the saints’ meeting the
Lord begins to sound wholly plausible.
Therefore, at this point we would refer the reader to some post-Trib (if
any Trib.) arguments below.
5.
<< "Come up Hither"
In Rev 4:1 where it says "come up hither," many pre-trib writers cite
this as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. Rev Chapter 1
through 3 is the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the
Church is not mentioned in scripture at all. The attention of scripture
switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel. >>
Of course, the mere opinion of “pre-trib writers” does not make an interpretation to be true. Who are these “pre-trib writers” and what is the basis of their interpretation of Revelation, chapters 1 to 4? How do they figure? What do they make of their views on the first four chapters of Revelation considering the fact that there are also writers who disagree with their interpretation?
(On another note, in his paper this
same author refers to Revelation 19:8 where the righteousness of “the
saints” is mentioned. Now, I
ask you: are Jews the saints, or are they merely part of/some
of the saints at best? Answer:
merely part. Thus, the church is
in actually mentioned after Revelation 4.
Besides this, to read the church into the words of Revelation
4:1 seems counterintuitive. Only
John would have been addressed there in context and told to ‘come up hither.’
6.
<< Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns, Rev 19:14, there is an army that follows Him riding on
white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. In Rev 19:8 we are told
the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are
returning with Christ, to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not to have a
post-trib rapture. >>
Um, how so?
7.
<< The Time of Jacob's Trouble
In a number of places, the Bible refers to the tribulation as a time of trouble
for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's trouble" pertains to the
descendants of Jacob. In Jeremiah 30:7 it says that this time of trouble will
come just before the Lord returns to save His people. The final week of
Daniel's 70th week is yet to take place. An angel told Daniel that, "70
weeks are determined unto thy people."(Dan 9:24) Scripture never mentions
that the tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians, however
some post-tribbers try to claim they are the ones being tested during the
tribulation. To make this so, they need to spiritualize the 144,000 Jewish
believers in (Rev 7:2-8) that receive God's protective seal. Placing the Church
dispensation into the same time frame as the seven year Jewish dispensation, as
the Post-tribbers do, raises one good question. Can two dispensations transpire
at the same time? In the past, God has only dealt with only one at a time.
Having both present during the tribulation, would have to be an exception. >>
This strikes me as being an
over-generalization of Post-Tribbers. Meanwhile, he just assumes that
dispensationalism (at least his brand of it) is true.
8.
<< War or Rapture
(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be
coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be a
strange thing to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle.
The idea that war and rapture could occur together is a difficult thing to
imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment. >>
<< it would be a strange thing to meet your
Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle >>
Sounds rather exciting, actually. At any rate, truth is often stranger
than fiction, and a thing’s merely sounding strange to someone does not
necessarily make it untrue.
9.
<< The Five Foolish Virgins
The wedding story that Jesus gave in Mat 25:2-13, I believe, relates a parable
of the rapture of the Church and how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly
states that a group of people will miss out on some event, and will cry out to
God to let them into the place where He resides (heaven). Although some try to
put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones
left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the lord because
they'll immediately be confronted by him and his army of angels. >>
The
last statement made there is a strange one. If the armies of the Lord are marching out toward these
unbelieving sinners in order to slaughter them (a reality if all of Revelation
19 is to be interpreted literally), what better time to seek salvation from the
Lord? [Of course, I wouldn’t
expect all people seeking to be spared God’s wrath to be saved in light of 2
Corinthians 6:2: “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in
the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time;
behold, now is the day of salvation.)”]
We
do not have a compelling reason at this point to make Matthew 25:2-13 a pet
passage for the Pre-Trib view.
10.
<< God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to
wrath. The wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the
tribulation. Pre-trib believers cite this as meaning that Christians will be
removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They
describe this as meaning God will protect Christians during the tribulation,
and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the
statement made in Rev 13:7 where the Antichrist is given power to make war with
the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of
protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of
protection from guns and swords. Today when any major war would involve nuclear
and chemical weapons, it's not possible to expect protection from these types
of weaponry. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during W.W.II, the bomb exploded
over a Catholic church. Everyone that was in the center of the explosion died,
both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's
promise of protection from wrath, is the bodily removal of the Church from this
world. >>
This is not a good argument. Let us take a look at 1 Thessalonians
5:9, shall we? It is written: “For
God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
Christ.” Question: If, as it is
claimed above, that the wrath mentioned in 1 Thess. 5:9 is God’s anger poured
out during the Great Tribulation, then what is one to make of Romans 2:5-9? It is therein written:
5 But
after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath
against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will
render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them
who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and
immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto
them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,
indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation
and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also
of the Gentile;
No, it is not the case that “the
wrath [mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:9] is plainly God’s anger that will be
poured out during the tribulation,” for obviously none of the individuals that
Paul was addressing in Romans 2:5-9—all of them now dead—will be alive when the
Great Tribulation will finally hit.
11.
<< God Takes an Inventory
In Rev 7:3 an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God. Two bits
of information are given about this sealing that highly disclaim a post-trib
viewpoint. The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000. The second
one is that all those who are sealed are from the twelve tribes of Israel. For
the events in Rev 7:3-8 to be true, in a post-trib way, either the Church has
turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could
write a thousand word commentary on why the Church doesn't need to be sealed.
Instead of trying to argue why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a
pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven." >>
Number one, he just assumes that
the 144,000 and the name “sons of Israel” must be taken literally. It is probably a correct view, but it
is rather controversial among Biblical commentators—a just cause for suspicion.
Number two, concerning Rev. 7:4 he
just assumes—as does everyone actually—that the phrase “*one
hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:”
following right on the heels of “And I heard the *number
of those who were sealed,” is an appositive phrase. However, as it so happens, I have my suspicions that it may
be interpreted differently.
Regardless of whichever view one
may take on the grammar of Revelation 7:4, you are going to have to read some
words into it to deduce its meaning.
That is to say,
And I heard the *number
of those who were sealed, *one
hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
is not a complete sentence. However, if we were to make a thought
for thought translation of it, what would we get? Of course, most would say that it should be:
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, and it was 144,000 from every tribe of the sons of Israel.
However, I just do not see any
reason to believe why it could not instead be:
And I
heard the number of those who were sealed, [and to address Israel especially]
144,000 from every tribe of the sons of Israel [were sealed].
Truth be told, however, this
theory is not fully developed, is not battle-tested, nor has it been subject to
the review of peers or academians….
Number three, if only 144,000 Christians
should be alive in the last days, with all of them being Hebrews, then that is
how it will be. End of story. Now, it may be the case that this
number is so low that it is a cause for serious questioning and suspicion. However, when it comes to interpreting
the Holy Scriptures we must interpret the unclear in light of the clear. And the information provided by 1
Corinthians 15 and by 1 Thessalonians 4 is clear: there is only one coming of
the Lord, and all will be raised at the same time as one another, which in turn
is when the Lord comes. (See
post-Trib arguments below.)
12.
<< Noah and Lot as Examples
The tribulation period is compared to the times of Noah and Lot by Jesus in
Luke 17:28. Most people argue over what time frame Jesus was talking about hear
pre-trib or post-trib, and miss an important point. The two things that the
Noah and Lot situations have in common are the removal of the righteous and the
judgment of the unbelievers. From these two accounts, we see that God prefers
to remove His own when danger is involved. >>
It is funny that he should mention this verse. First, the verse must be put into context; placing it in a reading of verses 22-37 might do:
22 And he said unto the
disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of
the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you,
See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that
lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under
heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many
things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of
Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank,
they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah
entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in
the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they
planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot
went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them
all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the
day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall
be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take
it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save
his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night
there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall
be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding
together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the
field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said
unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither
will the eagles be gathered together.
After doing that, note the temporal context the Lord establishes here--verse 30: it is “the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
Note that the words “the day” are
used here. The grammatical
construction of definite article plus singular word tells us that there is
precisely one day in which the Lord is revealed. Considering the fact that He will most obviously
be seen when He returns at the end of the great tribulation (if there will even
be one), the revelation/revealing of the Son of Man must take place at this
particular time.
Of course, this day of revelation
is the same day when believers are taken up according to Luke 17, no?
-------
13. We will now proceed to respond
to an argument posted on http://hometown.aol.com/imwadej/tribulationviews.html
(evidently taken ultimately from Jack Van Impe):
<<
Second Corinthians 5:10 states, “For we must all appear before the judgment
seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body.” This
is an impossibility in the posttribulation arrangement of events because
millions cannot be investigated in less than one second or “the twinkling of an
eye” (1 Corinthians 15:52). The “bob up to meet Him and bob down to reign”
theory, if true, wipes out the intervals of time demanded for the judgment seat
of Christ and the marriage. >>
But how would this be impossibility in post-Trib arrangement of events? Mortals surely cannot judge millions of people in less than one second, but is there any special reason to believe that Almighty God is incapable of such? As for the reference to marriage above, quite frankly I do not know what the author is saying or talking about there.
-------
14. Hour to Trial argument drawing
upon Revelation 3:10, which reads: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I
also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the
world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
A person issuing such an argument
in favor of the Pre-Trib view would like the unbeliever (in Pre-Tribbism, of
course) to view the word “world” as meaning “world”; that is to say, literally
all the world.
However, what is good for the
goose is good for the gander. Why
not take the word “the hour” literally?
If “world” must be taken literally, then “the hour” can be taken
literally as well. Of course, if
we do proceed to interpret “the hour” as meaning literally “the hour” (definite
article + singular word; thus, there would be only one hour of temptation),
then Revelation 3:10 could not hold a reference to the great tribulation. This event is supposed to last 3.5 or 7
years after all.
-------
Positive Arguments Against the Pre-Tribulation Model(s)
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18:
15
For this we say to you *by
the word of the Lord, that *we
who are alive [11]and
remain until *the
coming of the Lord, will not precede *those
who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord *Himself
*will
descend from heaven with a [12]*shout,
with the voice of *the
archangel and with the *trumpet
of God, and *the
dead in Christ will rise first.
17
Then *we
who are alive [13]and
remain will be *caught
up together with them *in
the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always *be
with the Lord.
18
Therefore comfort one another with
these words.
1. The dead in Christ rise before those alive in Christ (v15; 16).
2. The rising of those alive in
Christ occurs immediately after the dead rise (v16, 17).
3. Revelation 12:17 mentions
believers being around on earth during “the great tribulation.”
4. Therefore, either the believers
of Revelation 12:17 will not be raptured, or the Pre-Trib view is erroneous.
Everyone has to go at the same
time, not one group being raptured seven long years after the first group.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24:
22
For *as
in Adam all die, so also in [8]Christ
all will be made alive.
23
But each in his own order: Christ *the
first fruits, after that *those
who are Christ's at *His
coming,
24
then comes the end, when He hands
over *the
kingdom to the *God
and Father, when He has abolished *all
rule and all authority and power.
1. Both the dead in Christ and those alive in Christ will be made alive at the same time (v23).
2. They are made alive at the
Lord’s coming (v23).
3. 1 Cor. 15:23 has “His coming”
and 1 Thess. 4:15 has “the coming of the Lord”—both of which are grammatical constructions delimiting the number of possible comings to
1.
4. Revelation 12:17 mentions
believers being around on earth during “the great tribulation.”
5. Therefore, either the believers
of Revelation 12:17 will not be raptured, or the Pre-Trib view is erroneous.
Read those two sets of verses and
syllogisms over again. Then go to
http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/rapture.htm
and read “The Rap on the Rapture.”
Now, you can say, “Oh, this
doesn’t seem very likely,” and “That doesn’t seem very likely” with regard to
certain Biblical passages all you want.
However, we must interpret the unclear in light of the clear. (In fact, clarity bears light, not
obscure things.) The data provided
by 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are clear things though.
-Baalema Kwame Eliyahu
Constructive criticism: yusefii@yahoo.com
Appendix 5/15/00: Clarification
Great trials to come? More likely than not. (Matthew 24:
have we yet seen this abomination of desolation? Revelation 6:11: Christians
are persecuted and killed even today, however. Thus, Revelation would pertain
at least in part to the future. And Revelation 6:11 is not so easily subject
to figurative translating at all.)*
Seven-year duration? No. There is no Biblical support for this.
Matthew 24:24, Revelation 6:11: elect will/would be present.
_______
* See also Rev. 8, 9:6, 18. These do not seem likely to have happened yet.